I’m unlikely to practice something like this in the future, “you never know.” I don’t want to let the customer down, but it’s quite an option for myself!
Foreman , thank you for the information on the experiment with glues.
As a latex additive for adhesive milk, you can use a product from Kerakoll - Keraplast Eco P6. It improves the adhesion of bonding layers of mortars, ensuring the density and uniformity of mineral mortars and mineral screeds.
Mode of application . First mix Keraplast Eco P6 with water in the required ratio, and then add cement and aggregates. Mix thoroughly to avoid the formation of lumps. Recommended proportions:
adhesion solutions : 1 part Keraplast Eco P6; 1 part water; 2.5 parts cement.
improved cement mortars : 1 part Keraplast Eco P6; 2.5 parts water; 5 parts cement; 10 parts filler.
Behemoth , thank you for the calculation, in general I agree with your figures. In my opinion, they are very eloquent and on their basis some conclusions can be drawn. For example, these:
The cost of waterproofing materials in the estimate of construction chemicals is a significant part (in our example, half). Therefore, it is necessary to apply waterproofing only where it is really needed (floor plus wet areas).
You should not skimp on primer. As you can see, its cost is insignificant, but the consumption of subsequent layers will be economical.
The cost of purchasing construction chemicals is practically independent of the cost of the ceramic coating. Those. choosing ceramic tiles for 2000 rubles/m2 or 500 rubles/m2, you will spend approximately the same amount on construction chemicals.
Due to interest in H40 Eco Marmorex , a detailed description has been added to the website. This product has unique characteristics and it is difficult to find analogues. Due to the significant cost, it is delivered to order. Video material on the product has not yet been publicly available. I have a branded video from the Kerakoll company, although the resolution is rather weak, so we won’t post it on the site. I can provide it to you upon request (write to me in the private message module on the site). The video shows in detail the process of cladding a 6-story building with new marble slabs, in Russian. Additionally, we contacted a representative of the Kerakoll company, they confirmed to us that there is video material on the H40 Eco Marmorex. As soon as it is provided, we will post it on the website.
I thank Grachik for his sincerity and simplicity in presenting his comments. I find this passage very interesting:
At home and at the homes of close friends, tiles, including porcelain tiles, were laid with cement mortar; this is much cheaper, but the installation process is more labor-intensive. I carry out work at customer sites exclusively using tile adhesive. This is due to the following circumstances. Firstly, the customer always keeps the gain in the cost of materials. Secondly, the cost of work always depends on the cost of materials. Therefore, the tiler has no interest in using cheap construction chemicals.
Laying ceramic tiles is available to people of any income; in some cases, it can be done independently. Since the cost of tiles fluctuates over a wide range, the conclusion suggests itself: ceramic tiles are one of the best materials for cladding, both in terms of aesthetic and technical characteristics, and cost.
Since we are talking about a bathroom and toilet, it is necessary to include waterproofing . For walls with gypsum plaster, either ready-to-use or two-component waterproofing is suitable. You can apply any of the waterproofing . For wall-to-wall and wall-to-floor joints, appropriate tapes made of elastic, water-repellent material must be used.
I believe that Foreman Behemoth missed this point, being carried away by calculations.
Texture, permeability, mineral content, history of stone formation - all these properties are of great importance both for the process of laying the stone and for its further operational purpose. If natural stone is exposed to water, it will easily penetrate through the pores of the stone. Porosity ensures the spread of water, which, of course, affects natural stone and leads to a number of problems: deformation , staining , and the formation of efflorescence . Since the question concerned staining, I will describe this problem in more detail.
The coloring agent penetrates into the natural stone along with water. As soon as the water evaporates, the coloring substance is concentrated and, as a result, leads to the coloring of natural stone. These substances are found in the stone itself , come from the installation adhesive , or are contained in the base . The use of adhesive mixtures based on white cement can significantly reduce or completely eliminate the influence of the last two points.
For those who want to carry out the work of preparing and applying adhesive milk on their own, I will give a few recommendations.
When performing thin-layer putty or adjacent screeds, before work it is necessary to treat the existing surface with adhesive cement “milk” prepared from IDROKOL X20, water and cement, taken in equal proportions (1:1:1). Apply adhesive laitance with a brush, roller or brush. Immediately apply the cement mortar mixed with IDROKOL X20, fresh on fresh, before the adhesive cement “milk” forms a surface film. After application, level and compact the mortar.
Preparation of adhesive milk Mix in a clean container 1 part of clean water (t° from +10° to 20°C), 1 part of IDROKOL X20-m. Pour 1 weight part of cement into the resulting liquid while continuously mixing with an electric drill with a special mixing attachment until a homogeneous liquid solution without lumps is obtained.
The technical data sheet for Coverflex waterproofing says that the consumption is 1.6 kg/m2 for each mm of thickness. Since the waterproofing is two-component (component A powder 20 kg, component B liquid 10 kg), the question arises how to calculate the consumption of Coverflex waterproofing ? The correct approach should be this: consumption is calculated based on the dry component . In our case, component A powder is 20 kg. With a layer thickness of 1 mm, a surface of 12.5 m2 can be treated.
The influence of temperature on the hardening rate of CPR
As a rule, it is recommended to carry out screed pouring work at temperatures from +5 to +35 degrees Celsius. Therefore, the question arises: how does temperature affect the rate of hardening of Portland cements. Here I deliberately write “Portland cement” because... the following reasoning is valid for both CPR and dry mixtures in bags.
So, temperature has a great influence on the hardening of cement. The hardening speed at low temperatures from 0 to +8 degrees Celsius is 2-3 times less than at ordinary temperatures from +15 to +25 degrees Celsius. At temperatures below 0 degrees Celsius, hardening processes almost completely stop. An increase in the temperature of hardening solutions is accompanied by an acceleration in the growth of strength. It becomes noticeable at a mixture temperature of 30 - 40 degrees Celsius when they harden during warm periods of the year. However, the intense effect of temperature on the hardening of cements manifests itself only in the presence of liquid water in them. The lack of water during hardening at elevated temperatures not only slows down the hydration process, but also reduces the strength and durability of the screed. When the water completely evaporates, the hardening process stops.
Foreman, as a specialist in construction chemistry, I can ascertain to you that it is impossible to mix Kerakoll Extra and Ceresit CM 11 adhesives with each other, since these are different adhesives from different manufacturers. It is better to use them separately, even in the same area. Please note that CM 11 is designed for laying ceramic tiles, while Extra is suitable for ceramic tiles and porcelain stoneware.
However, each of us has a craving for experimentation. Therefore, from the point of view of an experimenter, I have the following considerations:
if we are laying ceramic tiles on the wall (with a water absorption of 3%), then we will mix Extra and CM 11 in a ratio of 50 to 50 to 20 to 80. It is not worth taking a smaller amount of Kerakoll Extra, since we will not feel comfortable when working with this glue . The mixture will have thixotropy because both of these glues have this property.
If we are laying porcelain stoneware on the wall (water absorption is less than 0.5%), then we will take at least 2/3 Extra. And this point is fundamental, since Ceresit CM 11 is not intended for laying porcelain stoneware. The mixture will be thixotropic.
We will consider the lifetime, open time and adjustment time of the resulting solutions to be close to the indicators of CM 11. Foreman, after the experiment, write down the results.
According to the main technical characteristics, cement-sand mortar and dry mixture in bags are materials of the same order. Of course, subject to the technology of performing the work. In my opinion, the significant difference in the cost of these materials is due to the “comfort” in working with them. That is, the higher the price, the greater the comfort. Here we can draw an analogy with motor transport. You can drive a distance of 100 km in a Matiz, or you can drive a Bentley. However, the comfort level of the trip varies.
Let's return to the screeds. To feel comfortable, you need to work independently with both the CPR and the dry mixture in bags. I will highlight several factors for dry mixtures in bags that affect comfort :
bags of 25 kg mixture can be easily moved on site manually;
the components are in the right proportion, you only need to add water;
When working on sites, I several times came across mistakes that “masters” make when mixing mortar or adhesive for ceramic tiles. Below I will describe them with explanations. So:
Pour the mixture into the container, then add water and begin to mix.
As a result, lumps of dry mixture may remain in the corners of the container (wall-bottom junction).
As a rule, these poorly mixed lumps of the mixture go to work, and therefore the technical characteristics of the solution in some areas will differ from those declared by the manufacturer.
To avoid this, you must first add water to the container, and then add the dry mixture.
process water from the heating system, or dirty water from a puddle or swamp, or sea water is used.
As a rule, this leads to the appearance of additional substances in the solution, and therefore the technical characteristics of the solution may differ from those declared by the manufacturer.
Clean drinking water must be used.
When mixing, the remains of the solution are used, the life of which has already expired.
In this case, the technical characteristics of the prepared solution may differ from those declared by the manufacturer.
adding extra water.
The result here can be reduced adhesion and/or reduced mechanical compressive strength.
From my experience working with Fugalite Eco epoxy grout, I would like to make the following comments:
Fugalite Eco components can be mixed manually, i.e. without using a mixer;
If you want to mix part of the grout from the package, be sure to weigh the required amount of each component on a scale, accurate to the nearest gram;
To obtain a metallic decorative effect, use the additive Fuga-Glitter ;
water for diluting Fuga-Wash, approximately 25 - 35 degrees Celsius. This will allow for more effective cleaning of unhardened residues and traces of grout;
To remove hardened residues and traces of Fugalite Eco, use Fuga-Soap .
White adhesives are also recommended for use when working with monoporosa ceramic tiles - single-firing wall tiles . Let me explain what this tile is.
The production of monoporosa is carried out using a technology similar to that of monocottura production, using a press and subsequent firing of tiles on which the glaze has already been applied. But the use of other components of the batch causes a change in both the physical characteristics and the scope of application of this tile, which are more close to bicottura.
High-density single-fired ceramic tiles, such as monocottura and porcelain tiles, are made using clay that has a high iron oxide content and the addition of a feldspar-based flux to provide strength. To make monoporosa, clay is required that is highly saturated with carbonates, the importers of which are France and Germany. As a result of firing, a white mass is created that has high porosity and moisture absorption. Its strength is significantly lower than monocottura; therefore, the tile itself has a thickness of about 12 mm and is used for interior decoration .
This technology makes it possible to produce large slabs. And, if in the production of bicottura a significant thickness of the enamel layer is required in light colors in order to hide the red base, then in monoporosis the white base eliminates such measures. This allows them to be executed in imitation of natural marble.
If you decide to use Fugabella Eco Porcelana 0-8 for outdoor use, then avoid red and yellow colors . Over time they will fade. Not all colors of this cement grout have good (increased) color fastness. See the technical card for more details.
The technology for troweling work shown in the video is correct, I recommend following it.
In our practice, Superflex Eco was used to cover the metal staircase leading to the second floor with granite steps. The work was carried out in May 2010, all the steps are still in place, there is no tendency for peeling or destruction. For the master, comfort when working with glue is as follows : simple and easy application, increased open time and adjustment time.
An important point: after hardening, the glue can only be removed mechanically. Therefore, Superflex Eco residues from tools and tiled surfaces are removed with a damp cloth or alcohol while the adhesive is fresh.
Keracem Eco or Keracem Eco Pronto screeds, the recommendations are as follows. Heated floors - the first heating should be carried out at least 5 (five) days after screeding at a temperature of 20 to 25 degrees Celsius, maintain it for at least 3 (three) days. After this, set the maximum design temperature and maintain it for at least another 4 (four) days. Begin laying ceramic tiles after the screed has cooled to ambient temperature.
Counter question: which product and for what reasons are you leaning towards Keracem Eco or Keracem Eco Pronto? If you are interested, I will express my thoughts in favor of each of them.
Kerakoll H40 Eco Marmorex what determines the price?
Kerakoll H40 Eco Marmorex - provides very fast and high hydration, which binds the mixing water and prevents the formation of surface stains, ensuring the safe installation of sensitive marble and natural stone. The price is determined by the following characteristics: 1. ULTRA-FAST BINDING AND CURING - thanks to a special mixture of fast-binding hydraulic substances, with a high content of white cement and polymers that increase the cohesion of the structure molecules; 2. HIGH LEVEL OF HYDRATION - thanks to a mixture of quickly binding substances with a high degree of hydration, which retain water in the mixture and eliminate the appearance of stains on the marble; 3. SHOCK ABSORBING SYSTEM (SAS) TECHNOLOGY - a testing technique to ensure traction in real construction conditions; 4. MARBLE CHIPS - used as a filler; 5. HIGH ADHESION - 2 MPa concrete/gress after 28 days.
Indeed, white and gray tile adhesives are available on sale, made on the basis of white and gray cement. The gray color of cement is mainly due to the presence of iron compounds in the original raw materials, so to obtain white cement, it is necessary to use raw materials with a low content of iron compounds and also apply bleaching technologies. Of course, this affects the final cost of the adhesives; the price difference can reach up to 25%. Based on the technical data sheets of the manufacturers, we have: “THE ADHESIVE MIXTURE BASED ON WHITE CEMENT IS ESPECIALLY RECOMMENDED WHEN INSTALLING COLORED AND TRANSPARENT GLASS MOSAICS, AS WELL AS TILES MADE FROM NATURAL WHITE STONE AND SENSITIVE TO STAINING NATURAL STONE, BECAUSE NOT THIS IS THE ORIGINAL COLOR OF THE MATERIAL.” In other cases, you can use adhesives based on both white and gray cement, having previously read the technical data sheet.
Foreman , thank you for the information on the experiment with glues.
As a latex additive for adhesive milk, you can use a product from Kerakoll - Keraplast Eco P6. It improves the adhesion of bonding layers of mortars, ensuring the density and uniformity of mineral mortars and mineral screeds.
Mode of application . First mix Keraplast Eco P6 with water in the required ratio, and then add cement and aggregates. Mix thoroughly to avoid the formation of lumps. Recommended proportions:
Additionally, read the technical data sheet for the product.
Behemoth , thank you for the calculation, in general I agree with your figures. In my opinion, they are very eloquent and on their basis some conclusions can be drawn. For example, these:
Due to interest in H40 Eco Marmorex , a detailed description has been added to the website.
This product has unique characteristics and it is difficult to find analogues. Due to the significant cost, it is delivered to order. Video material on the product has not yet been publicly available.
I have a branded video from the Kerakoll company, although the resolution is rather weak, so we won’t post it on the site. I can provide it to you upon request (write to me in the private message module on the site). The video shows in detail the process of cladding a 6-story building with new marble slabs, in Russian. Additionally, we contacted a representative of the Kerakoll company, they confirmed to us that there is video material on the H40 Eco Marmorex. As soon as it is provided, we will post it on the website.
I thank Grachik for his sincerity and simplicity in presenting his comments. I find this passage very interesting:
Here's what you can pay attention to:
Since we are talking about a bathroom and toilet, it is necessary to include waterproofing . For walls with gypsum plaster, either ready-to-use or two-component waterproofing is suitable. You can apply any of the waterproofing . For wall-to-wall and wall-to-floor joints, appropriate tapes made of elastic, water-repellent material must be used.
I believe that Foreman Behemoth missed this point, being carried away by calculations.
Texture, permeability, mineral content, history of stone formation - all these properties are of great importance both for the process of laying the stone and for its further operational purpose. If natural stone is exposed to water, it will easily penetrate through the pores of the stone. Porosity ensures the spread of water, which, of course, affects natural stone and leads to a number of problems: deformation , staining , and the formation of efflorescence . Since the question concerned staining, I will describe this problem in more detail.
The coloring agent penetrates into the natural stone along with water. As soon as the water evaporates, the coloring substance is concentrated and, as a result, leads to the coloring of natural stone. These substances are found in the stone itself , come from the installation adhesive , or are contained in the base . The use of adhesive mixtures based on white cement can significantly reduce or completely eliminate the influence of the last two points.
For those who want to carry out the work of preparing and applying adhesive milk on their own, I will give a few recommendations.
When performing thin-layer putty or adjacent screeds, before work it is necessary to treat the existing surface with adhesive cement “milk” prepared from IDROKOL X20, water and cement, taken in equal proportions (1:1:1). Apply adhesive laitance with a brush, roller or brush. Immediately apply the cement mortar mixed with IDROKOL X20, fresh on fresh, before the adhesive cement “milk” forms a surface film. After application, level and compact the mortar.
Preparation of adhesive milk
Mix in a clean container 1 part of clean water (t° from +10° to 20°C), 1 part of IDROKOL X20-m. Pour 1 weight part of cement into the resulting liquid while continuously mixing with an electric drill with a special mixing attachment until a homogeneous liquid solution without lumps is obtained.
In the technical map
The technical data sheet for Coverflex waterproofing says that the consumption is 1.6 kg/m2 for each mm of thickness. Since the waterproofing is two-component (component A powder 20 kg, component B liquid 10 kg), the question arises how to calculate the consumption of Coverflex waterproofing ? The correct approach should be this: consumption is calculated based on the dry component . In our case, component A powder is 20 kg. With a layer thickness of 1 mm, a surface of 12.5 m2 can be treated.
As a rule, it is recommended to carry out screed pouring work at temperatures from +5 to +35 degrees Celsius. Therefore, the question arises: how does temperature affect the rate of hardening of Portland cements. Here I deliberately write “Portland cement” because... the following reasoning is valid for both CPR and dry mixtures in bags.
So, temperature has a great influence on the hardening of cement. The hardening speed at low temperatures from 0 to +8 degrees Celsius is 2-3 times less than at ordinary temperatures from +15 to +25 degrees Celsius. At temperatures below 0 degrees Celsius, hardening processes almost completely stop. An increase in the temperature of hardening solutions is accompanied by an acceleration in the growth of strength. It becomes noticeable at a mixture temperature of 30 - 40 degrees Celsius when they harden during warm periods of the year. However, the intense effect of temperature on the hardening of cements manifests itself only in the presence of liquid water in them. The lack of water during hardening at elevated temperatures not only slows down the hydration process, but also reduces the strength and durability of the screed. When the water completely evaporates, the hardening process stops.
Draw your own conclusions.
Foreman, as a specialist in construction chemistry, I can ascertain to you that it is impossible to mix Kerakoll Extra and Ceresit CM 11 adhesives with each other, since these are different adhesives from different manufacturers. It is better to use them separately, even in the same area. Please note that CM 11 is designed for laying ceramic tiles, while Extra is suitable for ceramic tiles and porcelain stoneware.
However, each of us has a craving for experimentation. Therefore, from the point of view of an experimenter, I have the following considerations:
We will consider the lifetime, open time and adjustment time of the resulting solutions to be close to the indicators of CM 11. Foreman, after the experiment, write down the results.
According to the main technical characteristics, cement-sand mortar and dry mixture in bags are materials of the same order. Of course, subject to the technology of performing the work. In my opinion, the significant difference in the cost of these materials is due to the “comfort” in working with them. That is, the higher the price, the greater the comfort. Here we can draw an analogy with motor transport. You can drive a distance of 100 km in a Matiz, or you can drive a Bentley. However, the comfort level of the trip varies.
Let's return to the screeds. To feel comfortable, you need to work independently with both the CPR and the dry mixture in bags. I will highlight several factors for dry mixtures in bags that affect comfort :
When working on sites, I several times came across mistakes that “masters” make when mixing mortar or adhesive for ceramic tiles. Below I will describe them with explanations. So:
From experience working with epoxy
From my experience working with Fugalite Eco epoxy grout, I would like to make the following comments:
White adhesives are also recommended for use when working with monoporosa ceramic tiles - single-firing wall tiles . Let me explain what this tile is.
The production of monoporosa is carried out using a technology similar to that of monocottura production, using a press and subsequent firing of tiles on which the glaze has already been applied. But the use of other components of the batch causes a change in both the physical characteristics and the scope of application of this tile, which are more close to bicottura.
High-density single-fired ceramic tiles, such as monocottura and porcelain tiles, are made using clay that has a high iron oxide content and the addition of a feldspar-based flux to provide strength. To make monoporosa, clay is required that is highly saturated with carbonates, the importers of which are France and Germany. As a result of firing, a white mass is created that has high porosity and moisture absorption. Its strength is significantly lower than monocottura; therefore, the tile itself has a thickness of about 12 mm and is used for interior decoration .
This technology makes it possible to produce large slabs. And, if in the production of bicottura a significant thickness of the enamel layer is required in light colors in order to hide the red base, then in monoporosis the white base eliminates such measures. This allows them to be executed in imitation of natural marble.
If you decide to use
If you decide to use Fugabella Eco Porcelana 0-8 for outdoor use, then avoid red and yellow colors . Over time they will fade. Not all colors of this cement grout have good (increased) color fastness. See the technical card for more details.
The technology for troweling work shown in the video is correct, I recommend following it.
In my practice Superflex
In our practice, Superflex Eco was used to cover the metal staircase leading to the second floor with granite steps. The work was carried out in May 2010, all the steps are still in place, there is no tendency for peeling or destruction. For the master, comfort when working with glue is as follows : simple and easy application, increased open time and adjustment time.
An important point: after hardening, the glue can only be removed mechanically. Therefore, Superflex Eco residues from tools and tiled surfaces are removed with a damp cloth or alcohol while the adhesive is fresh.
For semi-dry Keracem screeds
Keracem Eco or Keracem Eco Pronto screeds, the recommendations are as follows. Heated floors - the first heating should be carried out at least 5 (five) days after screeding at a temperature of 20 to 25 degrees Celsius, maintain it for at least 3 (three) days. After this, set the maximum design temperature and maintain it for at least another 4 (four) days. Begin laying ceramic tiles after the screed has cooled to ambient temperature.
Counter question: which product and for what reasons are you leaning towards Keracem Eco or Keracem Eco Pronto? If you are interested, I will express my thoughts in favor of each of them.
Kerakoll H40 Eco Marmorex - provides very fast and high hydration, which binds the mixing water and prevents the formation of surface stains, ensuring the safe installation of sensitive marble and natural stone.
The price is determined by the following characteristics: 1. ULTRA-FAST BINDING AND CURING - thanks to a special mixture of fast-binding hydraulic substances, with a high content of white cement and polymers that increase the cohesion of the structure molecules;
2. HIGH LEVEL OF HYDRATION - thanks to a mixture of quickly binding substances with a high degree of hydration, which retain water in the mixture and eliminate the appearance of stains on the marble;
3. SHOCK ABSORBING SYSTEM (SAS) TECHNOLOGY - a testing technique to ensure traction in real construction conditions;
4. MARBLE CHIPS - used as a filler;
5. HIGH ADHESION - 2 MPa concrete/gress after 28 days.
Indeed, white and gray tile adhesives are available on sale, made on the basis of white and gray cement.
The gray color of cement is mainly due to the presence of iron compounds in the original raw materials, so to obtain white cement, it is necessary to use raw materials with a low content of iron compounds and also apply bleaching technologies.
Of course, this affects the final cost of the adhesives; the price difference can reach up to 25%. Based on the technical data sheets of the manufacturers, we have: “THE ADHESIVE MIXTURE BASED ON WHITE CEMENT IS ESPECIALLY RECOMMENDED WHEN INSTALLING COLORED AND TRANSPARENT GLASS MOSAICS, AS WELL AS TILES MADE FROM NATURAL WHITE STONE AND SENSITIVE TO STAINING NATURAL STONE, BECAUSE NOT THIS IS THE ORIGINAL COLOR OF THE MATERIAL.” In other cases, you can use adhesives based on both white and gray cement, having previously read the technical data sheet.
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